7 comments so far
I think this was my favorite post to date. Probably because I am facing this in my game at the moment. Specifically with the combat – so you are right it is a mini game which can be hit or miss. Right now combat seems quite boring in my game, and I am wrestling with how to give it a unique flavor. The rest of the game uses behind the scenes skill checks to determine if a player see’s a secret door or lever and whether or not they are spotted by the big bad enemy. Combat right now is just stat based and like so many MMO/RPG’s its just a matter standing in front of the enemy and hoping you roll better. There are spells which you can use to damage from a distance, kite, and break up groups, but it all seems done and done….I think this one issue will be the hardest one for me to solve. Wait did I get off topic!?
What would be examples you liked, Garteth? Regarding the difficulty scaling the tube-connecting game in Bioshock worked pretty well for me – hard ones really were hard. (However, the Oblivion game which is your negative example, also worked OK-ish in that respect for me personally – I don’t usually have bad reflexes, but I could never master this game very well, although I know that many other people could easily beat it at all levels)
Regarding lockpicking gamesspecifically, I just wish there would be more variety – there should be different types of locks, just to keep things interesting.
I think another good rule of thumb for a minigame is to ask if it would work as a $2 cell phone game. If it can stand on its own, there is probably just enough gameplay there to keep people interested for the duration of a 40 hour RPG.
Combat as a minigame? PuzzleQuest!
First time reader. Excellent article. As soon as you move combat and other “mini-games” onto the same conceptual level, it becomes much more clear why lockpicking, hacking, planet scanning etc. suck. Combat is a “mini-game” so good that some games consist only of combat. But who would like to play even 30 consecutive minutes of the Oblivion dialogue game?
If you treat a game like a mini-game, you run the danger of making them bad games. Treat them like combat, and you will end up with a much richer experience.
Perhaps a good test to see whether your mini-game is fun is to play it non-stop for two hours.
Space Rangers 2 did this very well, but for the most part, the mini-games were optional. That’s exactly how I want it. I don’t like some styles of games and I’m hopelessly inept at some of them (usually, but not always, those two categories coincide). But if I can skip those kinds of mini-games and still succeed at the main game, great.
I was hopeless at the lock-picking mini-game in Oblivion. But since I could just use a spell to open locks, that wasn’t a problem. So if a game gives me multiple ways to solve a problem, that’s probably ideal.
But what I really hate are arcade-style or FPS mini-games in an RPG that I can otherwise play with no problem. If I can’t avoid those, or reasonably let the auto-combat handle it, I can’t play them at all. That’s a huge disappointment in a game where it’s just a minor feature in a different kind of game entirely.
Yes, but rpg combat and chess involve “intelligent” opponents that react to the player’s moves. A lock or any such thing must always present a static challenge.
@ Rich : I hear ya. Creating something new and interesting but still fun is fairly tricky. I’ve written a small post about it in fact.
@ Ghan : Hmm, I can’t think of any which fit ALL the criteria I mentioned above, probably why mini-games have such a bad rep
Arcomage and Pazaak were cool enough, but they were optional and not tied to stats. I enjoyed lockpicking in Thief, but it isn’t really an RPG. The bioshock tubes weren’t bad either, neither was System Shock 2 hacking.
Space Rangers 2 had text adventure mini-games which were done well. It also had a trading layer, but like combat done well it graduated from mini-game to integrated game system.
EvE Online’s scanning is interesting. I found it frustrating until I, eherm, read the wiki. But it is a good example of what I’m talking about. I never got that far in EvE but the ship customizations looked like a mini-game in and of themselves!
@ Grandor/Ghan : Exactly. If a mini-game is good enough to stand as a game on its own, then it COULD be a good mini-game. If it gets boring after 15 minutes of continuous play…forget it.
It does help illustrate why non-combat paths are less supported in RPGs though. Challenging to make the other types of gameplay as rich and diverse. Combat systems have been play-tested since the dawn of gaming. New dialogue systems? Not so much.
@ Tuco : I dunno hey. Some of those Darkspawn have the intelligence of locks, if you ask me
No reason why picking a complicated lock can’t involve dynamic responses to player actions. Especially once you add traps. And certainly no reason why you can’t do it with computer hacking. I’m not saying EVERY skill check can be turned into an awesome mini-game, but I think we can probably do better than we currently do.
Generally I agree with the article.
A few points:
First I’d (re)make the point that it’s hardly surprising not to find many successful examples: as soon as a ‘minigame’ is well integrated, people will cease to think of it as a minigame. I don’t think it’s a helpful word for a designer to use in the first place – it generally seems to be an excuse for poor integration.
Second, I think an important point you don’t cover in your four is the range of potential outcomes from the minigame. To look at combat as an example, compare Xcom combat with that of many RPGs; in Xcom there are a wide array of significant combat outcomes: dead/injured soldiers, financial implications, artefacts to research, aliens to interrogate/dissect…. In an RPG, it’s too frequently just win/lose: anything lost in a win can simply be regained by resting/healing/resurrecting. A successfully integrated minigame doesn’t just need to respond to the roleplaying layer – it needs to influence it in as many ways as possible; simple succeed/fail being the worst possible case.
For this reason, I don’t think it helps to talk in terms of a “solution space”. While all Xcom combat outcomes could be seen as ‘solutions’ in some sense, the phrase “solution space” is much more likely to put people in mind of chess. Chess has huge array of solutions, but each is equivalent to three outcomes: win/draw/lose. A designer should be looking for as many ways as possible to connect game situations to higher-level processes; I don’t think that looking for a “solution space” is likely to encourage this.
This also directly ties into your point (2). It’s fine to “ramp up the challenge”, but to do so with a narrow range of outcomes is always going to be a brittle process that’ll fail to cater to a wide range of player skills. It’s hugely simpler if there’s a wide range of outcomes from the start: there’s no need to judge the difficulty precisely, since a player with high skill will simply have a wider choice of outcomes. So long as there are many outcomes, both character skill and player skill can meaningfully change the situation.
Moreover, a wider array of potential outcomes helps to keep the player’s mind on the game situation as a whole. If something is a succeed/fail hurdle with no other potential implications, the player has no incentive to focus on the higher level realities – if he can overcome the hurdle without much trouble, he doesn’t need to focus on the game at all. To take a trivial example, consider something like lockpicking with/without the possibility of being discovered in the act, making enough noise to attract attention, being detected after the fact by someone looking for evidence of intrusion…. If time-taken/noise/accuracy all have an impact on immediate/future discovery, any player always has a challenge, together with a higher level decision on his relative priorities: does it matter if he goes slowly / is seen / makes noise / is discovered later…?? Without any of that, it’s not really integrated.
A wide range of significant outcomes is much simpler to achieve with combat, than with, say, lockpicking (not that it’s impossible – just much harder to come up with many that apply in a general case). For this reason, I don’t think the “Combat can be integrated well, so why can’t X?” argument is convincing on its own – or at least it doesn’t say much about lockpicking and similar.






[...] thread pointed out, one of the problems of non-combat gameplay is, well, the gameplay. I’ve talked about how combat is actually an advanced form of mini-game before. Though mini-games are hated in general, combat is one of the few that are done well enough [...]